TNEWS TALANOA

What are the consequences of having an abortion?
Setita Millar and guests continue to talk the abortion topic over.

View Pacific Viewpoint EP8 - 2009 here: http://www.tnews.co.nz/TNEWS/PVPEP8-2009.html

Open for comments...

There was an interesting yet eye opening angle Madeleine (is that her name? - I mean the palangi woman sitting in the middle with red shoes) brought up and that is she didn't think about sex until she and her boy friend sat together in a sex education class. After two weeks she suggested to her boyfriend whether he would think of taking their friendship further. I'm assuming she meant to have sex. Also, she was jokingly saying that ..."yes, it is a double edged sword.." on the other hand we need to know about sex but the other side of the sword is that how are we going to manage or use that information. Brilliant stuff guys. I'm in awe at the way the conversation is going and I have learnt alot of things from this programme. Thank you and have a merry christmas.

ouch! Dr. Paul is trying to be nice, let alone what real people are feeling he has no idea how a pacific islander feels. This issue as Rev. Mataia states, it's taboo in our culture however, coming to a new country and culture we will have to learn to adapt. However, it will take time to do that. I still beleive it is vital for the govt to facilitate a procedure to enable children to discuss major decisions such as abortion with their parents. If there are abusive parents and I'm sure there will be cases like that, but the majority are good parents. So in cases such as abusive parents, I believe govt. should still work out a way to mediate between child and parents.

Blood Wrote:Madeleine (is that her name? - I mean the palangi woman sitting in the middle with red shoes)

LOL! Yes that's me

I thought Reverend Tavale's comment that Samoa did not have anything like the abortion or teen pregnancy rate of New Zealand's yet there was less sex education there was really good! It shows that the values taught in a culture alongside the information given are really important. If the values are those of responsibility towards what sex is, its importance and its value, what the fetus is, its value, as opposed to how to use a condom and be "safe" and have an abortion (without your parents knowledge), then you are going to get a better outcome.

Admin Wrote:


What are the consequences of having an abortion?
Setita Millar and guests continue to talk the abortion topic over.

View Pacific Viewpoint EP8 - 2009 here: http://www.tnews.co.nz/TNEWS/PVPEP8-2009.html

Open for comments...

I am a victim of this stupid law. Last two years ago my 15 year old daughter had an abortion without my permission. Apparently, I found out from a little note I found in my daughter's room and then I was asking her about it. After a long discussion about the note, she finally told me she had an abortion two months ago. That very moment, I did not know what to do, It was like someone put a knife through my chest. It was so painful more so, I felt soooo looow that I was not trust worthy enough for my daughter to come to in her time of needs. After this whole unbelievable feeling, a wave of love flooding over me towards my daughter and we sat there both crying on one another's shoulders. All I can say, if only somebody out there including lawmakers negotiated it with me, I think we would both did something totally different. Now I am constantly attending to my daughter's needs as she always had nightmares about her abortion. Any help from anyone?

Here are some feedback sent to myviewpoint@pasifika.tv.
Happy Browse everyone!

Begin forwarded message:

From: Kay Neich
Date: 17 December 2009 12:24:22 PM NZDT
To: Kay Neich , myviewpoint@pasifika.tv
Subject: afterword: a bit more feedback stemming from a number of episodes [rushed]

I think whenever I try to mention the following, I'm always going to sound
like an absolutely ignorant idiot on talkback radio. I still didn't manage
to get out what I intended most of all. Our society seems so geared up to
not offend religious people. I also don't want to strip people's beliefs
from them. They are vital to the emotional health of those who hold them. I
can see how religious people see society as the opposite, and as being
against what they hold dear. I've noticed a tendancy for some Christians to
think that everything "against" them, is apparently what I, as an athiest,
would condone. I personally find a lot of Christian rhetoric insulting in
many ways. The world is not here as my resource, and indeed I am related to
all the other creatures here. But people like those Christians don't seem to
account for the fact that I try very hard in my life to accomodate what
gives them life's meaning too. They are not the only ones doing the
accommodating.

Maybe some of our youth begin to question what I have too, but cannot
articulate it. Do they end up despondent? Is their love accepted in the way
they try to give it?

Thanks for listening again.
Kay

This is another feeback:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kay Neich"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 8:52 PM
Subject: feedback stemming from a number of episodes [rushed]


I think that Samoan minister on your programme [15/12/09] typifies much
sloppy thinking abound in all sorts of people today. He seemed to conflate
morality with Christianity. There is a lot to be desired in reference to
how
our young are educated, and if sex education today is how many on your
panels claim, then in no way are students recieving an education currently
that
is in line with what I, as an athiest, would consider sound, compassionate
and responsible. I was suprised to find myself agreeing with Bev Adair in
believing that kids need a hell of a lot more guidance to understand and
be
comfortable with their own feelings and emotions.

Some of us may have left Christianity, but this does not mean we are only
looking out for number one, as I've heard implied previously on your show.
I
contend that many initiatives that leave Christians cold, from my point of
view, leave kids in a sort of no-man's-land, whereby it is not put to kids
that even if they are living without a god, that this life and world is
precious. This world and life are it. It is all we have to share. We can't
live without affecting others, and so we must care about how we impact on
others. I am of the opinion that very sound ethics an come from such a
stance. It means we're not only referring to the good out from how others
have sought to understand life in the past, but we should be continually
trying to understand more of how to handle life and how we live now. Kids
are really only recieving one half of the message: no, we don't have to
slavishly follow whatever was done before, BUT we do have to understand
whatever does make the most sense with everyone's care and wellbeing in
mind, no matter what we do and how we live.

To just give any example, I was struck with the sad case of the Kahui
twins. People said what
contributed to that was a breakdown in culture. That it was best if
somehow
people go "back" to their "identity". I beg to differ. Isn't it often a
case
of not helping kids integrate matters in a way to go on with? It all
sounds
interpretive and simplistic, but I think I can illustrate more of this
whole
letter by suggesting there are those who want to "give up" and "go back"
but
they are often only considering one out of an infinite number of good and
bad ways to live, in comparision with returning to a recognized
traditional
path (still very interpretive)..

My mum is Samoan, and for her sake, I can sometimes say that I am. But
really, there's all sorts of bits and pieces fom her that are a part of
me.
It may be Samoan, it maybe just her - I see no need to pin a label on any
of
it! So, I would really be scared if suddenly I got to school, and suddenly
some sort of church minister has advised that I must be taught in line
with
"Samoan ways". How limiting! Views labeled as 'Palagi' maybe just as
limiting, but I expect to be given an overview in all sorts of areas at
school. Having insiders and outsiders guide me in understanding "What
some
people in my family may think', may help me more. Sibs
can be separated for some lessons - that's just good culturally-sensitive
etiquette. In no way should kids ever be limited in what info they have
access to because of skin colour. This is almost what is proposed.
Delivery
of worthwhile info may have to be sensitive,
but none of those kids have to grow up and live in accordance with
whatever
their culture is said to be! That is crazy. Again, I suggest guidance
should
be more on what makes sound, safe sense however a person ends up living.

That brings me to Bev. Two weeks ago I got the distinct impression that no
matter how much time, explanation and effort a girl could put into wanting
an abortion, Bev would make her feel as though she is out of control and
doesn't know her own mind. Perhaps that's like what the younger panelist's
sister went through. Push hard enough, and anyone would crumble, think
they're wrong, and sometimes end up emotional wrecks for life, seemingly
confirming what everyone else thought. I've seen the way Mum has done
this, she
can't help it, but she does try to takeover firmly before I have to pay
for any
consequences of my behaviour, everything ends up working out according to
her, and she is in no way wanting to understand, well, maybe I really
wanted
a different outcome, and I was really ready to pay costs and drag myself
through an excrutiating hell to get there.

A foetus develops legs. Didn't everyone know that? I fail to see how that
has bearing on anything. One would have to be religious to make the issue
more than the limitation of net suffering. I tried to imagine a little one
growing inside me
once when at 28 I thought I may have conceived. Due to my circumstances, I
had to psych myself up to abort. I could still imagine a litle one, and I
tried hard to bring into consciousness what I might have had to do. I know
it's not easy to think that you may have to end a life. An abortion can be
a
responsible choice. I woulde't want my parents struggling to help me raise
a
child, even though I know they would.

Why should my values be overrun by those who still believe in a skypixie?
To
me that is still the heart of those who believe their views have a better
basis than mine. All our views can be kooky at times, may be we need to
accept that before anything else.

Thanks for listening to my rant.
Kay Salafai Neich

Setita Wrote:This is another feeback:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kay Neich"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 8:52 PM
Subject: feedback stemming from a number of episodes [rushed]


I think that Samoan minister on your programme [15/12/09] typifies much
sloppy thinking abound in all sorts of people today. He seemed to conflate
morality with Christianity. There is a lot to be desired in reference to
how
our young are educated, and if sex education today is how many on your
panels claim, then in no way are students recieving an education currently
that
is in line with what I, as an athiest, would consider sound, compassionate
and responsible. I was suprised to find myself agreeing with Bev Adair in
believing that kids need a hell of a lot more guidance to understand and
be
comfortable with their own feelings and emotions.

Some of us may have left Christianity, but this does not mean we are only
looking out for number one, as I've heard implied previously on your show.
I
contend that many initiatives that leave Christians cold, from my point of
view, leave kids in a sort of no-man's-land, whereby it is not put to kids
that even if they are living without a god, that this life and world is
precious. This world and life are it. It is all we have to share. We can't
live without affecting others, and so we must care about how we impact on
others. I am of the opinion that very sound ethics an come from such a
stance. It means we're not only referring to the good out from how others
have sought to understand life in the past, but we should be continually
trying to understand more of how to handle life and how we live now. Kids
are really only recieving one half of the message: no, we don't have to
slavishly follow whatever was done before, BUT we do have to understand
whatever does make the most sense with everyone's care and wellbeing in
mind, no matter what we do and how we live.

To just give any example, I was struck with the sad case of the Kahui
twins. People said what
contributed to that was a breakdown in culture. That it was best if
somehow
people go "back" to their "identity". I beg to differ. Isn't it often a
case
of not helping kids integrate matters in a way to go on with? It all
sounds
interpretive and simplistic, but I think I can illustrate more of this
whole
letter by suggesting there are those who want to "give up" and "go back"
but
they are often only considering one out of an infinite number of good and
bad ways to live, in comparision with returning to a recognized
traditional
path (still very interpretive)..

My mum is Samoan, and for her sake, I can sometimes say that I am. But
really, there's all sorts of bits and pieces fom her that are a part of
me.
It may be Samoan, it maybe just her - I see no need to pin a label on any
of
it! So, I would really be scared if suddenly I got to school, and suddenly
some sort of church minister has advised that I must be taught in line
with
"Samoan ways". How limiting! Views labeled as 'Palagi' maybe just as
limiting, but I expect to be given an overview in all sorts of areas at
school. Having insiders and outsiders guide me in understanding "What
some
people in my family may think', may help me more. Sibs
can be separated for some lessons - that's just good culturally-sensitive
etiquette. In no way should kids ever be limited in what info they have
access to because of skin colour. This is almost what is proposed.
Delivery
of worthwhile info may have to be sensitive,
but none of those kids have to grow up and live in accordance with
whatever
their culture is said to be! That is crazy. Again, I suggest guidance
should
be more on what makes sound, safe sense however a person ends up living.

That brings me to Bev. Two weeks ago I got the distinct impression that no
matter how much time, explanation and effort a girl could put into wanting
an abortion, Bev would make her feel as though she is out of control and
doesn't know her own mind. Perhaps that's like what the younger panelist's
sister went through. Push hard enough, and anyone would crumble, think
they're wrong, and sometimes end up emotional wrecks for life, seemingly
confirming what everyone else thought. I've seen the way Mum has done
this, she
can't help it, but she does try to takeover firmly before I have to pay
for any
consequences of my behaviour, everything ends up working out according to
her, and she is in no way wanting to understand, well, maybe I really
wanted
a different outcome, and I was really ready to pay costs and drag myself
through an excrutiating hell to get there.

A foetus develops legs. Didn't everyone know that? I fail to see how that
has bearing on anything. One would have to be religious to make the issue
more than the limitation of net suffering. I tried to imagine a little one
growing inside me
once when at 28 I thought I may have conceived. Due to my circumstances, I
had to psych myself up to abort. I could still imagine a litle one, and I
tried hard to bring into consciousness what I might have had to do. I know
it's not easy to think that you may have to end a life. An abortion can be
a
responsible choice. I woulde't want my parents struggling to help me raise
a
child, even though I know they would.

Why should my values be overrun by those who still believe in a skypixie?
To
me that is still the heart of those who believe their views have a better
basis than mine. All our views can be kooky at times, may be we need to
accept that before anything else.

Thanks for listening to my rant.
Kay Salafai Neich

Hi Kay, after reading your post I thought to myself, are you out of your mind? Look, I don't give a xxxx about whether you're an atheist or others are christians...I do care about my daughter's wellbeing. You can argue as much as you can, but one question will keep on playing in my head, how could my daughter do such a thing? If you careless about that then it is pointless talking to you. Perhaps you need to go through what my daughter and I have been going through and perhaps you will understand what I am talking about. With the way I am feeling at the moment, I have all the right reason to blame the law makers of this country for allowing such a law. Saying that tho, I am not 100% blaming the law makers, I am trying to make some sense of it all. So, for you to come and start rambling on with your atheist theory, I can say to you, good on you but don't try to pretend you understand how we feel because you don't.....

Ouch! Setita posted those emails before I knew of them. I would have never posted within the context of this specific discussion thread myself - and hope that is obvious I was being far more general in my hurried address. I tried to hit the crux of what I felt across a number of episodes, and condensed a hell of a lot for the sake of simplicity. At one stage, it may seem that I am thoroughly misrepresenting an individual in my haste.

The relationship between my mother and I is always changing, developing and strengthening. It has moved on from what I've described above (my description was always meant in the past-tense). I've grown to appreciate her much much more, the more I see how different our worlds are, and will always be. It was hard growing up and not being able to show her how much I loved her in my own terms. I guess that feeling was mutual.

cheers
k

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/endurin...ssive.html
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/enduringidiom
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kay Neich Wrote:Ouch! Setita posted those emails before I knew of them. I would have never posted within the context of this specific discussion thread myself - and hope that is obvious I was being far more general in my hurried address. I tried to hit the crux of what I felt across a number of episodes, and condensed a hell of a lot for the sake of simplicity. At one stage, it may seem that I am thoroughly misrepresenting an individual in my haste.

The relationship between my mother and I is always changing, developing and strengthening. It has moved on from what I've described above (my description was always meant in the past-tense). I've grown to appreciate her much much more, the more I see how different our worlds are, and will always be. It was hard growing up and not being able to show her how much I loved her in my own terms. I guess that feeling was mutual.

cheers
k

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/endurin...ssive.html
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/enduringidiom
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi Kay,
I thank you for the posts and you are not wrong in some ways and very wrong in lots of assumptions I believe. I am on of the regulars debaters in this forum simply because we love to express our viewpoints regardless whether it is right or wrong, deep or shallow and perhaps naive at times. You seem to be proud of being an atheist likewise I am very proud of being a christian. I don't agree with the viewpoint that you have mentioned in your post that almost implied that christians are narrow minded and onesided. Very wrong! The one thing I like being a christian is that I can truly see life from a different viewpoint and don't follow the crowd. I am also proud of the fact that being a christian means I will still make mistakes, still struggles yet happy that I can learn from them and move on.

Queenie A

Setita posted my first comments. I had no idea about this page and I was not replying to you or anyone. I tried to rectify how it seemed immediately as I became aware of this, as I saw it was very insensitive to you. I'm shaking and i feel sick that i may have added to your upset. please disegard me. i can't offer platitudes off the cuff, because you deserve more time and thought.

Yes Kehekehe, I did let rip with many terribly blatent assumptions. Moreover, if I added the excuse it was for the sake of brevity, I 'd understand if that was still inacceptable.

Focusing in on another angle, for what it's worth, I'm currently managing to really help my family through a very hard time, because I am ignoring my mother expecting me to break at what we're facing. She honestly thinks she knows my emotions insideout and believes she would be a bad mother if she didn't. She really is amazed at how much I've been coping lately. I'm not suprised that I'm managing, and I wanted to act on my strengths much earlier, but kept listening to her doubts. I think that's just how it goes. She's sure she understands me. And she doesn't have to, but I think she feels under pressure to think that's what love is. Maybe some of us need to take that pressure off ourselves.

Kay Neich Wrote:Focusing in on another angle, for what it's worth, I'm currently managing to really help my family through a very hard time, because I am ignoring my mother expecting me to break at what we're facing. She honestly thinks she knows my emotions insideout and believes she would be a bad mother if she didn't. She really is amazed at how much I've been coping lately. I'm not suprised that I'm managing, and I wanted to act on my strengths much earlier, but kept listening to her doubts. I think that's just how it goes. She's sure she understands me. And she doesn't have to, but I think she feels under pressure to think that's what love is. Maybe some of us need to take that pressure off ourselves.

Hi Kay, may I ask you one question? are you a mother?

ha! it doesn't suprise me it's come to that!

no. it'd would be irresponsible of me to have children too, i believe.

it's been very tough for me to accept that. it wasn't easy. had to listen to myself and cut out all the value-laden noise abound about being without children. my mum was with all her sentimental gobledegook about motherhood too, and i had to slice right thru that to get to my own feelings. i ask people to think twice about how i dont know how it is to be a mum. i accept that. equally they have no idea of how it is to be me, i have grown up knowing i probably would never reproduce. i've tried to hone in other skills instead.

i've known people to sit there and say i have no practical experience of this, that and the other - they have no idea of what i've been through either. it gets discounted easily, out-of-hand sometimes. i'd give anything to be able to have those practical opportunities. other times i know i'm a pain-in-the-arxe, and i myself wish i would shutup!

christmas presents for my cousin's kids - that's the next job! i'm suprised by how much kids in my family want me in their lives anyhow. i was always hoping this would happen as they becoe teenagers.

i've also got a decade of running around in circles tryna respect and figure out what my mother and ex would yell at me about not knowing the outside world forever and a day. now she says lots of mothers would yell fury if their daughters came home pregnant, but then absolutely love their grandchild.

that's all very well, but some of the things she said to me in anger stick with me all my days, while she just laughs now and says i was always a good kid.

she just had no idea of what those words did to me long term. they put me on quite a path for years. only now do i know she did her very very best with what she understood.

she tried.

i'm not saying my experience is like everyone's, but ... there it is.

k

i KNOW WHAT i write may not sound very applicable, but i can't help thinking of what i've gone through with mum when people talk about how parents are the best placed to know what their daughters are going thru. i can remember mum being totally devastated and hurt when i did something wthout confiding in her, whereas i, at the time, was over the moon to think i had such great parents who would understand my need for privacy and to do things on my own.

i still cant forgive myself completely for how i hurt mum. after 15yrs, i'm only really starting again to feel good about my body, and my sexuality and things to do with how i carry myself and relate to others. Mum and i were at cross purposes, messages got confused, no one really was to blame. i am a bit suspicious then of those who say, "oh, it's alright, we lose our tempers at first, but we forgive". Forgiven I might be, but psychologically I think I went thru so much more than Mum realises, because I saw I upset her so much. Actually, I grew to hate myself for how events transpired. albeit i was 24, not 15.

if she knew what i thnk i needed when she tried in her own way to help me, it would have helped if she helped me retain my sense of agency, reminded me that i was still a pretty capable human being, that she knew i was really trying to understand things that went wrong and to do my best for her. others close by me have said they knew i had my head screwed on ok, it was just mum and i are so very
different.

I have no opinion on current legislation. I think what i've tried to broach here could be small insight into both ways of seeing in the debate some are trying to have.

thankis again for putting up with me.

well, i've had a terribly sleepness night. i'm sorry how i used that minister, Bev, the sister, in order to vent my frustrations. i know they are only doing their best in what they feel is right, with a lifetime of experience and in what they've helped others thru. Kehekehe, I thank you for tolerating me. i took the opportunity for slamming down what was in my heart, unmoderated, in that email to Setita. sometimes i think, with all due respect, people need to be exposed to the main gist of what i've tred to say, because they just seem so patenty unaware of other viewpoints. i know some christians, probably like you, Kehekehe have that awarehess. ouch, i don't mean to be that smarmy in how i sound.

of course i cant forget others who have expressed on this page how much they are hurting.

and my email was as an individual.. many attheists too may find what i said disagreeable.

mum has actually been wonderful in showing me what a huge capacity for emoting and feeling us humans have, and how frragile we are, but i went with her for a long time in helping me to interpret just what those feelings were. that left me high and dry and totaly up a tree with no ability to trust my own feelings or whatever i was doing anymore. i ended up in a lot of similiar relationships with others. i couldnt hellp anyone else or do my utmost for my family, whilst in that state. now i just smile and cudde her though things regardless.

k

Morning Kay,

My heart goes to you and I don't profess I know you but I can probably say I can try and understand where you're coming from.

Sister, if have tried your atheists theory all along and it doesn't take you anywhere, why not try our Lord Jesus Christ. Just try him in this Christmas and see what happens. All you need to do is "asking" him to come into your life and take over your frustrations, your agony and see what happens.

Your brother in Christ
Kehekehe.

Hey, I've just written here about how my life has gone a hell of a lot better, now that I realise lotsa very loved ones around me just will never see what I absolutely love about this world most of all! I appreciate everyone's such kind and good intent, however.

Jot this up to a mutual quod erat demonstandum with regards to differing perspectives, I think!

All my best wishes,
K

Can I please correct a typo? I meant to say above that now I've learnt to cuddle Mum through a lot of things regardless. It's an interesting phrase adapted from a friend of mine who once mentioned about "loving them through", actually in reference to her work with teenaged mothers, and who I'm sure, won't agree with all I've said. I've no idea of what she thinks about the legislation.

Please remember that I didn't sign up for this particular topic, and know I am illequipped to comment upon it.

I do believe the ways people relate to legislation, and what they expect legislation to provide, can also vary. I'm sure that is cold comfort in much aftermath.

This digression was only meant to correct a typo as to assure I was referring to a loving embrace, and not what a cow chews on...

please accept.

I still feel very concerned for QueenA. I can't get her off my mind. I can't think of much else. She asked for help before I came on and my so-called contribution ballsed things up. I hope others can support her here. I tried in some of my postings, but realise it would be absolute tripe to her. I spose its human to act on what we can take in when we're under just so much stress. It may help for her daughter to understand that she probably did what she thought was right at the time.

and if i'm digging a bigger hole for myself here, then too bad. it serves me right.

i don't know if i can keep posting. forgive me if i'm not around much longer. i was wanting to be here to ensure QueenA knows i heard her, notwithstanding that i realise she has too much on plate to think of anything else but her daughter.

i'm sorry. extremely sorry for the way things eventuated.

k

Something Dr Paul Hutchinson said really stood out to me. Between 18:16 and 19:18 Dr Hutchinson talks about illegal abortions.

He say although the statistics are contestable, that the World Health Organisation estimates that 20 million women die worldwide from illegal abortions each year.

The reason this stands out is that it is patently untrue. I'll agree that we can contest the WHO estimates of abortion deaths, but the World Health Organisation DOES NOT estimate that 20 million women die in illegal abortions. Instead it claims that around 70-80,000 women die as a result of illegal abortions and that there are 20 million illegal abortions worldwide each year.

Dr Hutchinson may be doing one of several things when he said this:

1. Making a genuine mistake of mixing up the numbers of illegal abortions with deaths of pregnant women said to result from those abortions. In which case he should make an effort to publicly correct this statement.

2. Willfully misleading the community by extremely over-exaggerating the numbers of women dying from complications of illegal abortions

3. Admitting that the 20 million unborn children killed in these illegal abortions are also persons who possess dignity and rights that mean it is impermissible to kill them for the reasons that abortionists attempt to use to justify their deaths. (He would also be assuming that almost all of 20 million babies illegally aborted are women).

In either case his point that the existence of illegal abortions is justification for permitting abortion in society, doesn't actually stand on a consistent principle or correct assumption.

ok. i know it's offtopic and i don't know why i didn't click earlier, but i'm much more worried about an individual, than mucking around with my own convoluted prose on abstractions. partly why i've found myself wasting time on my own half-baked rabid commentary is that i've been having the odd flashback and extremely vivid nightmare about past events too. Now I'm alright Jack, i've read screeds on what i've been thru and how these recurrent themes and images keep prevading. Any other person won't be convinced of explanations overnight or just from one source. it requires thought, reading, critical review and probably counselling. Those nightmares can be serious and a symptom of something greater that may require prof advice. But as a meagre start that won't hurt, i suggest it helps to accept these nightmares can evoke very real feelings and images. I'm not sure, but maybe the effect really does release chemicals into the bloodstream, producing physiological effects akin to what happens with any form of anxiety too. Years ago i was pretty suprised at one of Mum's friends who came trapesinhg across town really worried just because she had a nightmare about Mum. For the sheer sake of a young woman's welfare, please let me offer a comparision of this friend's approach from how I may wake up, sweating and crying, but also acknowledging that I've been stressed, my brain has been pretty wracked, and it has gone into overdrive. Maybe a person with recurrent nightmares will need considerable more help initially, but a bit of a homespun-adapted cognitive therapy approach helped me out there.

only when i'm very stressed now do i have these dreams (two of us are undergoing/undergone drastic medical treatment in our house, it's pretty full on. mum's resorted to her faith - i was worried how i would handle her friends with all their churchy stuff but they help her, and i wish i could help out when she's horribly confusing messages from the specialists, which only upset her more. You would think she's had my mastectomy, and i've just got to shutoff from her in order to give myself what i need in healing. Thus, as i've said, i just cuddle her thru, realising just how fking fragile she is). i say this much because i want to suggest that when everyone is pretty upset, sometimes they've each got to be so careful about their impact on the other person. i said this in my posts above in other ways, but can't say it enough. when i was a teenager too, of course there was a big difference in degree in this sort of dynamic between Mum and I, but it wasn't much of a difference in kind. i just wish i could calm Mum down.

jeez i'm sorry for diverting again away from what others will want to discuss. I was probably in no state to watch PVpt even, let alone comment, let alone get understandably blasted.

k

Kay Neich Wrote:I've just got to shutoff from her in order to give myself what i need in healing.

....... and to be as responsive as I can be to both my parents. It's hard work. Mum likes to feel needed so much, it's actually just quite an amazing look at humanity and how it manifests. God, sometimes I sound like her in these damn posts.

yet another thing to add, sometimes talking is good, sometimes there is a risk of retraumatization ... um.. as evidenced here, I thank...

I don't think even the very very best of legislation will come anywhere near to what understanding is needed for our wellbeing. No one should rely upon it, seek directives from it, think it only exists for us. I'll freak out and leave the country if there ever is binding referenda. Experiences do inform but a disciplined grasp of more facets of any issue is necessary. Involving studies and stats and counterstudies and metanalyses and...

Are laws supposed to instruct our conduct, or are they really the bare minimum to kick in when our own initiatives to work in beyond what the law provides, fail? Does opinion on this vary with varying sectors of our community?

i want to move over and take up less space. i think now I've added in everything i had in mind to say to see what i saw as my responsibilities through, and then some to lead back into topic (as rough as my notes are).

i'll make an effort to go quiet now.

k

Kay Neich Wrote:yet another thing to add, sometimes talking is good, sometimes there is a risk of retraumatization ... um.. as evidenced here, I thank...

"think", I meant to say. flaming heck...

Back from holiday, and I've one postscript for those lost so much, they read me this far :

I continually said things the wrong way throughout this page, and increasingly, nerves went to jelly, and took over. One thing that came across to me loud and clear yesterday as my cousin proudly spoke about all her pupils she's had this year, showing us cards from them and the printing of one who really touched her heart, was how my mother fought all my life - sometimes against her worried family, for my independence too.

In my rush to emphasize some points here while on the backfoot, other things got distorted.

Of course I don't completely turn off whenever Mum gets so under the weather, but realise her responses are definitely only her own. I believe I love her more today like I used to do as a child, with what I now understand of how we each relate to our emotions so differently. Absolutely nothing said above diminishes how incredible the woman is too.

-------------------------------

Having made all this offtopic racket, I reached for Fergusson, Horwood & Boden (2009). This fairly well-hailed research, as part of the Canterbury birth cohort longitudinal study, is on the relationship between having an abortion and mental health. In trying to find out about it on the net. I've seen how that paper has been used by special interest groups. So I was glad to get as close to the source as I could:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cach...rw83gXDUgP

It sorts a bit out for me, and as I expected, the research is not there to find causes of the abortion-related distress in some women that in turn then sees a higher likelihood of mental health problems occurring. I've seen popularist material imply it does. Over 90% of the sample do not regret their decision (read paper for detail). The authors acknowledge that it is not shown if negative reactions are more common in members of particular community groupings.

It indicates that a law needs review, but not necessarily in the way I think others hope.

Here is where people tell me stats and academia don't matter...

That's enough for me and I'm confused now because I've seen two different blurbs on what episode 8 was specifically about! I'm embarrassed I said anything, and have learnt and relearnt a few lessons that I'll keep to myself.

thanks for tolerating me babbling away
k

Happy new year Kay, I can almost feel your heartbeat from the way you express yourself in this forum. You seem to be an unhappy person, I can also feel you have something against Bev and some of the panelists. Nothing wrong with that of course but I can only wonder! I think you can try and accept yourself as yourself and by doing that you will find the world a better place to live.

Kehekehe Wrote:Happy new year Kay, I can almost feel your heartbeat from the way you express yourself in this forum. You seem to be an unhappy person, I can also feel you have something against Bev and some of the panelists. Nothing wrong with that of course but I can only wonder! I think you can try and accept yourself as yourself and by doing that you will find the world a better place to live.

Again, you've provided a beautiful illustration to what I have tried to convey, Kehekehe. Exaspirating, and turned on it's head, but stlll beautiful!!! Redeems me in what I've really tried to say, say and say some more! No wonder I've developed such an innane tendancy to keep trying. Good grief, brother...!

The thing is, Kehekehe, when I'm continually having it implied to me by a whole group of people, that I'm unhappy, no matter what I say or do, then guess what I'm going to be more prone to? I was intolerant in my messages earlier on and I feel I really let myself down then, but your 2nd post really reminded me how a tolerance
can all so easily be just a tolerance defined. It's an easy mistake that sometimes shows that we may not have much concept of what would constitute tolerance to how another person would appreciate it. Accept me in realising that I'm actually often down on my knees to get a better look at this planet. You can join me once you've finished your prayers, as I know others do.

Cheers
K